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The description is entirely subjective. Radiant! 15:19, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Timoleague Friary/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ceoil (talk · contribs) 02:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article is well written and the sourcing mostly fine (more later), but you are missing an archecture section, that could maybe similar to that in Kilcrea Friary. Am traveling atm, but could add from Keohane next weekend...I think you have this book also? Ceoil (talk) 04:19, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May be helpful for this: Mooney, Canice (1957). "Franciscan Architecture in Pre-Reformation Ireland (Part III)". Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland. Ceoil (talk) 04:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, thanks for taking a look at this. Yes I actually had the exact same thought yesterday, and as I was passing, I stopped and got a booklet for the friary which I've just used to start the architecture section. I'm going to mine the booklet, and then I'll turn to the Keohane which I do indeed have in my possession. Xx78900 (talk) 08:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great additions, and will get back to the review over weekend. Kinahan and Crowley both have harv reff errors. Also, the lead seems disproportionately small compared the body of the article...maybe beef it up. Ceoil (talk) 03:15, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • whose feast day was celebrated down to the seventeenth-century. - from when, and should "down" be "until".
  • The friary is a National Monument in State Care (#21) and its RMP (Record of Monuments and Places) number is CO123-050002-.[4] It is listed as a discovery point on the Wild Atlantic Way.[5] - not very appetising....#21 & CO123-050002 are jarring numbers and best left for infoboxes. Say why its a "on the Wild Atlantic Way". Or maybe praise it o its merits and not assume the reader knows what the Wild Atlantic Way is. Ceoil (talk) 05:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I've redone the lede section. I removed the bit about the 17th-century - it was there before I started editing the page and I never adjusted it. Unsourced and I unnecessary. I removed the numbers. I left in the Wild Atlantic Way, because I think that point of information has merit, but I didn't explain what the WAW is. Not because I think it shouldn't be explained, but I couldn't think of a concise way of doing so, without derailing the entire sentence. It's a hard thing to define - "on the Wild Atlantic Way, a coastal route encompassing the west coast of Ireland and marked with various points of interest" seems like... a lot. Thanks. Xx78900 (talk) 12:58, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As a post script aside, think you made a good choice re the Wild Atlantic Way. Myself and my two brothers all married Americans, and when the in-law visit they all want to visit the "Wild Atlantic Way", its obv been a huge marketing success (vs the ring of kerry in the 80s), so its prob safe to assume general readers will have some knowledge or grounding. Ceoil (talk) 13:35, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this - I’m going to be away until Monday, but I’ll implement those (and any further) changes then. I’m not the most in-the-know about Harvard referencing, we used MLA in college. What needs to change? Xx78900 (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS re the cite errors, would suggest you request help on one of the technical noticeboards or from somebody you know is clued up in this area. No doubt, all you need is a 10 to 15 character string in the sources htlm to tell it to ignore the usual, default anchoring naming convention. But as I say, don't do cite templates and that stuff is double Dutch to me. Ceoil (talk) 00:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-FAC notes

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From a quick scan, before a proper re-read.

  • The lead is quite short, given the article overall is 2641 words. Your likely to get a few archecture specialists at FAC, so would add a few sentences on its layout. I think the prose could be doubled here, a lot in the main article not mentioned in the introduction, and bear in mind, 90% of readers will stop at the lead.
Yeah, have been toying, but its a good start; lets see just before the nom. Ceoil (talk) 02:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reposition Timoleague Friary Window.jpg as its squashing the text between itself and the lower part of the infobox.
  • The img captions could be more descriptive or precise (ie the X feature seen from the Y vantage point)
  • Oh keep it please! Although you could reposition the images closer to the relevant text. Remember this is essentially an archecture page, and am thinking of asking for a look from KJP1, our eagle eyed resident expert on these matters. And maybe Guliolopez who also knows a lot, and is especially good at finding puffery. Ceoil (talk) 19:08, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay no problem. There are a lot of photos of the abbey, I might have a look through and see if there are better ones. Xx78900 (talk) 19:57, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Flow: You sometimes follow very long sentences with very short ones. Break up the long ones where possible.
  • Are the chalices really called the first and second chalices? Should it just be the Dale-Browne and Timoleague Franciscan Chalice.
  • So it's not that they're called the first and second chalices, but most sources (not all) that write about either one of them seem to be unaware of the existence of the other, and thus label the one that they're talking about "The Timoleague Chalice". On that, the only question I have so far about the edits you have made to the page is removing info about the chalices. Are you sure its inappropriate?
About the trimming: the article is already top-heavy on the chalices. Would prefer more focus on the archecture. Ceoil (talk) 10:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to include "earlier" and "later". Do you want to cut more off of the chalices? I'll extend the architecture section over the next few days.
  • No don't cut anymore. Any chance of photos of either? I'll be in Dublin on Friday and could go to Collins Barrick's if its on display. Have you checked it their are free images on Flicker? Ceoil (talk) 19:14, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm actually based in Dublin for this year and have just returned this evening. I might pop out tomorrow and see if I can get a photo. I haven't checked Flicker, and amn't familiar with it - is it a repository of images that are exclusively copyright free /fair use / creative commons, or do you have to be discerning? Xx78900 (talk) 19:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try and avoid single sentance paragraphs.
  • I have removed one of these. I'm not sure how to remove the other two still present: one is in the history section, and immediately follows a quote about the destruction of the town. Should I move it to the next subheading down? The other, in architecture, doesn't fit the other paragraphs but I will try and expand the description of the rooms mentioned over the coming days.Xx78900 (talk) 19:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Best not to start consecutive paragraphs with "In 19xx".
    Altered.Xx78900 (talk) 19:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • — (4 February 2014). "Machtnadh an Duine Dhoilghiosaich". What does — mean. Should it be Ó Coileáin, Seághan
  • It's referring to Beatrix Farber, who wrote the page in question, wherein Seághan Ó Coileáin's poem can be found. Given that I was using the reference to mention translations, I thought it more appropriate to mention the page author as opposed to the poem's author. I can change if needs be.
  • When did the French gift St Molaga's Head.
  • Great. And add any other info you can find as its quite a hooky paragraph. Do we have a pic of it? Ceoil (talk) 19:16, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't unfortunately, and would you believe I was in Timoleague this morning... up in Dublin now for the foreseeable and not sure when I'll be back. I know the stone and can get a snap in future, thought to be honest it is an unremarkable lump of rock - absolutely no traces remain of the carving to the naked eye anyway. Xx78900 (talk) 19:56, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately the Crowley source, which is the only one that mentions Molaga's head, doesn't provide even the century when it was gifted. Xx78900 (talk) 09:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Spittal, a nearby townland, there was a leprosarium, and......a bit story teller-ish
Thanks again for looking at this - I'm busy this weekend but I'll start reviewing and altering from Monday.Xx78900 (talk) 06:44, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a plan. Ceoil (talk) 10:40, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldnt use block quote for "We burnt all the towne, and their great...". As toy said above its messy and causes probs for the following sentance, and imo creates too much white space.
  • "Writes" rather than "claims", unless you doubt Samuel Lewis (i dont know enough to evaluate, but the word claims throws a shadow.
  • Audit for repetition and synonyms: founded the abbey in 1312.[13] The friary's
  • It's referred to pretty equally as an abbey and as a friary in the literature, which I tried to reflect in the article by using both. If consistency is preferred, I'm happy to do one or the other. It's official name per the Record of Monuments and Places is Timoleague Abbey.Xx78900 (talk) 09:07, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure the (block) quote "The preservation of the abbey is mainly due to the care bestowed...." adds much not already stated.
  • Clarify: "Despite the dissolution of the monasteries in 1540 by Henry VIII '[WHEN X LEAD TO Y], the friars.."- avoid the reader having to click blue links to understand the point
  • up until the late 1580s. Ceoil (talk) 23:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi, sorry I haven't been at this all week, my offline life has been manic - I should be able to potter away at this as the week goes on. Xx78900 (talk) 11:01, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No problem. I'll be gone for a few more weeks (around 2-3), but do have more to add if you can hang on. As it will be your first nom at FAC, first impressions will last, so bear with me pls. At very least we should do source and image reviews, on-top of this copyedit and comprehensive lookover. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    More than happy to hang on, I ended getting really busy IRL so it suits me better too! Xx78900 (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Personally, I think the block quote ties in nicely with the previous one, to show how attitudes changed towards the Travers family and their care for the Abbey, but I can remove it if you really think that's more appropriate. Xx78900 (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Fine, this is not a hill I'd die on, and tbh maybe its just that I dislike block quotes; fussy and create too much white space. I'm more or less done complaining about prose, although there are a few gripes outstanding. A source review to follow, but as I say, not shortly. Ceoil (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The section title "In culture" isn't right, as it implies pop songs, comics, etc. Ceoil (talk) 12:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Commentary on poem

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A terrific and very informative piece on the Abbey, but let down in the references to the poem. The ‘Dictionary of Irish Biography’ online names the author as Seán [NOT Seághan] Ó Coileáin [John Collins], and gives his dates as c. 1754-1817. They call the poem ‘Machnamh an Duine Dhoilíosaigh’ [“The Melancholy Man’s Reflections”]. The reference you give is to CELT (the ‘Corpus of ELectronic Texts’) which has, here, transcribed its text from an older print edition (Harriman’s “Irish Minstrelsy…” of 1831). Beatrix Färber [NB the umlaut] is NOT an author but just the person who has checked the transcription. I’ve not looked at Harriman’s book - the errors might be in his source, or made by him, or by the transcriber, or even Beatrix Färber, or a combination of some or all of them... Harry G.

Hi Harry, thank you for the compliment on the quality of the article, I wrote most of it and it was a labour of love for me. The common form of the name in modern Irish is 'Seán', but would more commonly have been spelt 'Seághan' traditionally. I see that you're correct about what it says on the Dictionary of Irish Biography, but I will note that the Wikipedia article does currently use the spelling 'Seán'. Perhaps you're referencing the fact that CELT names the poet as 'Seághan'? In that case, though I can't confirm this one way or the other, I would point out that they have listed "An t-Ollamh Seán Ó Coileáin" (Professor Seán Ó Coileáin) as an editor, and perhaps the may have used the dated form in order to clarify a distinction between the man and his namesake?
I haven't looked at Harriman's book either, and the second citation, that to the Cambridge Companion to the Irish Novel is not one that I have ready access to at present, though I should be able to see it again in due course to verify. One thing that is certainly true is that the poem is plainly older than the c.1913 date given, seeing as the poet was almost a hundred years buried at that point. I'll do some digging and update with a revised date. In terms of Machtnadh an Duine Dhoilghiosaich vesurs Machtnamh an Duine Dhoilíosaigh, my instinct would tell me that it may have simply been spelt differently by the poet or transcribed differently in different books. I certainly wouldn't invalidate the original spelling of one source merely because another is listed in another, particularly given how often alternative spellings existed in this era. I also fail utterly to see the relevance in pointing out the Ms.Färber's name is not of Irish origin, given that that shouldn't affect her ability to compile an existing text one whit.Xx78900 (talk) 15:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at number 227 on page 540 here, you will see that the title of the poem is given as Machtnadh an duine dhoilgiosaich, and that the poet's name is spelt 'Seághan Ó Cuillin'.
In this book Anarchive: James Clarence Mangan among the Ruins the name is spelt Seán Ó Coileáin and the poem is named Machtnadh an Duine Dhoilgiosaich. This one also dates the poem to 1812, so I imagine I made a typo when typing 1913 the first time. I will add this source to the article and update the date. Nice catch!
An information page for a module on pre-famine poetry taught at UCD lists the poem as Machnamh an Duine Dhoilíosaigh, and names the author Seán Ó Coileáin.
It seems that there are competing versions of spelling the names of both poem and poet, and so I'm just going to leave it as it stands in the article. Feel free to change either the title or the name of the poet to an alternate form if you feel passionately about it, I don't have strong feelings about them. Xx78900 (talk) 15:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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